Les questions des ptits nouveaux ⇒ Question houblon "en coupant le feu"

[Jinac]

Ouaip c'est correct

Et oui faire un whirpool redécolle les sédiments mais c'est pas grave

[Cede]

Je suis plus pour attente de la descente en T˚, puis ajout du houblon, whirpool, attente, soutirage.
Pas de whirlpool avant de mettre le houblon.

[psykomaz]

Je pratique plus comme cede, je laisse descendre, j ajoute mon houblon je le laisse quelques minutes bien se gorger de mout pour plus qu il flotte et je fais le whirlpool. Je laisse decanter et apres refroidissement

[Eric974]

Vous allez dire que je suis tordu mais je fais exactement le contraire de vous
Lorsque je fais mon hopstand à 78/80°je fais le whirlpool et en même temps ( comme dit l'autre) j’ajoute mon houblon
Ne dit on pas aussi cette technique " houblonnage au whirlpool" mais ce peut être vrai aussi pour le flameout
Sur la dernier AIPA j'ai fait un tourbillon et flameout et re-tourbillon et hopstand

[Cede]

Lorsque je fais mon hopstand à 78/80°je fais le whirlpool et en même temps ( comme dit l'autre) j’ajoute mon houblon

Tu ne serais pas dans l'hémisphère sud toi pour aller à l'envers ?

Bon, trêve de plaisanterie, je vais vous coller un paquet en anglish tiré de BYO, 3 articles qui se recoupent un peu, mais intéressants:

The hop stand is different than hop bursting, though they kind of relate in the same way. Hop stand is basically just letting your hops sit on the wort for a period of time. It can be 10 to 90 minutes depending on where it sits on the wort. It is not boiled.

Hop bursting is a technique where the brewer uses 95 percent or all of the hop additions in one single addition at the very end of the boil or during the whirlpool to pull as many flavor and aroma oils out of the hops while simultaneously not allowing the alpha acids to completely isomerize and vaporize the oils. We achieve almost all of our IBUs through this method, while maybe adding a small amount of hops at first wort or 60 min addition in our beers above 50 IBUs.

At temperatures of 175 °F (79 °C) and above you achieve a lot of isomerization of the hops alpha acids. Our theory is that we don’t want to get a very bitter beer; we want a flavorful and aromatic beer. Adding the hops in the whirlpool will achieve 15 percent utilization on the bitterness side, but all the oils and compounds will remain in the wort on the way to the fermenter to achieve as much flavor and aroma as we possibly can.

At that stage (homebrewers) are pulling about 10 percent utilization. A lot is going to depend on the temperature. If it’s at boil temperatures you’re going to get a lot higher utilization, but as it cools that number starts to go down. When the temperature gets below 175 °F (79 °C) you’re no longer isomerizing the alpha acids. That’s really a temperature we try to get down to in the hop burst so we can start pulling those oils rather than boiling them off and turning them into bitterness compounds. Above 175 °F (79 °C) you’re still getting a lot of aroma compounds as well. It depends how long they sit there.

We add our hops in the whirlpool as late as we can, about three-quarters of the way through. Since we want to get the hops off as fast as we can, we have a 20-minute rest in the whirlpool to get a good trub pile, then we start our knock out to the fermenter. We have a cold jacket that runs though our wort to cool it down and get it out of those high temperature ranges, allowing us to get more aroma and flavors into the beer. Don’t let hops sit too long in the whirlpool.
There are formulas (to calculate utilization) out there, but they are not exact. It’s better to throw in three times the amount (of hops). Trial and error is the best way. With normal utilization in the boil you get 30–35 percent utilization (for bitterness), but with hop bursting you get 10 percent utilization. So you’d need to add about three times the amount of hops in the whirlpool to achieve that bitterness level. But, all those flavors and aromas will pop through for a more flavorful and aromatic beer.

There are side effects to this practice. Your yield is going to go down because you’re using more hops; less wort at the end. You might also pull some grassy compounds, depending on the hops you use. Noble-type varieties aren’t necessarily best in hop bursting as you pull a lot more grassy notes and you could end with a really astringent beer. Aromatic varieties are mostly what we use: Amarillo®, Centennial and Chinook. Be sure to get a nice malt to go with it otherwise you get a really unbalanced beer.

This method is also expensive because you use three or four times more hops than a normal brew.

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One of the best ways to bring more hop flavor and aroma to your homebrew is adding hops at flameout and allowing extended contact time with the hot wort before chilling. This process, which is popular among craft brewers creating hoppy beers and is being used more in recent years among homebrewers, is known as whirlpool hopping, or performing a hop stand.

Whirlpool hopping gets the best traits of adding hops in the fleeting minutes of the boil and of dry hopping as the hot wort (below boiling temperatures) allows for the contribution of essential oils that are not released in dry hopping temperatures, while also minimizing the vaporization of these essential oils as will happen in boiling temperatures. This process will add some bitterness to the beer, as alpha acids isomerize at temperatures above 175 °F (79 °C). However, the isomerization rate will be lower than in boiling temperatures at or above 212 °F (100 °C), and is generally considered a smoother bitterness than early boil additions. For recipes in Brew Your Own, we calculate a 10% conversion of alpha acids to iso-alpha acids for flameout hops that will be put through a hop stand prior to cooling.

Hop stands are usually performed anywhere from 10 to 90 minutes, depending on the results you are looking for. A longer stand will extract more bitterness (assuming the wort temperature stays above 175 °F/79 °C). For IPAs, a 90-minute stand may make sense, whereas a style in which you are just looking for subtle hop aroma and little to no contributed bitterness, a
15-minute hop stand may do the trick.

As the temperature of your post-boil wort changes, so will the affect it has on your hops. Right off the burner, in a temperature range of 190–212 °F (88–100 °C), essential oils will most easily solubilize in the wort and a greater bitterness will be contributed. Once the wort temperature cools into a sub-isomerization range from 160–170 °F (71–77 °C) bitterness will no longer be contributed from the hops, but the essential oils will be soaked up with little vaporization. When the temperature gets even cooler the vaporization of essential oils will lower even more, but the time required to extract these oils will also increase. The easiest way to perform a hop stand is to allow your wort to cool for as long as you want your hop stand to last (before cooling it to fermentation temperatures with a wort chiller or in an ice bath) but if you are specifically looking for a consistent hop stand temperature around 200 °F (93 °C) to add bitterness you can keep your kettle on low heat. Alternatively, if you want the cooler hop stand, you could use your chiller to bring the wort down to that temperature and then perform your hop stand.

While they are most often considered when brewing hop-forward beer styles, hop stands can be a tool in the homebrewer’s repertoire for many styles. For beers in which bitterness is low but hop aroma is desired, you can forego most of the bitterness hop additions you would traditionally add and instead pick up the desired IBUs from the hop stand. Craft brewers who perform hop stands generally add the hops either in the kettle or a separate whirlpool vessel and create a wort vortex immediately following the boil. This whirlpool vortex is not necessary for homebrewers, however it can be achieved if you use a pump to keep it circulating. Otherwise, after adding the hops, give your wort a good swirl and put the cover on the kettle and let the hops do their thing.

Just like all other hop additions, performing a hop stand should not prevent you from also dry hopping or adding hops near the end of the boil. Both of these additions have their benefits too, so think about what you are trying to achieve and consider each separately, or combined.

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While the buzz around hop stands mainly revolves around highly hopped beers, there is a lot more to this technique than just trying to crank your DIPA up to an 11. (I will be calling this technique whirlpool hopping, but keep in mind that homebrewers don’t need to keep their wort constantly swirling in the kettle for this technique to work.)

The What and Why
A hop stand is simply allowing the boiled wort an extended contact period with the flameout hops prior to chilling the wort. Pro brewers typically create a whirlpool either in their kettle or in a separate whirlpool vessel with the hot wort and the ensuing vortex creates a cone shaped pile in the center of the vessel made up of the unwanted trub and left over hop material. Whether on purpose or inadvertently, pro brewers were giving their flameout hops extended contact time with the wort. This allows the hops added at flameout a period to release their essential oils into the wort, while minimizing the vaporization of these essential oils. In essence, adding a kick of hop flavor and aroma while also adding what can best be described as a smooth bitterness. In short, whirlpool hopping can add significantly to the hop flavor and aroma of beer.

Hop’s Essential Oils
The essential oils found in hops are volatile and provide beer with the hop flavor and aroma hop aficionados enjoy. While there are hundreds of essential oil components, for practical purposes brewers tend to focus on 4-8 main essential oils that play vital roles in providing hop varietal characteristics. One important characteristic is the essential oil’s flashpoint, or the temperature at which the essential oil is actively vaporizing to the point where it could ignite if sufficient vapors were present. At wort boiling temperatures, all hop essential oils have surpassed their flashpoints, so a vigorous boil will drive them off fairly quickly. The best way to think about the driving off process is in terms of half lives. The lower the flashpoint, the faster the oil vaporizes and the faster the half life. The longer the hops are boiled and the lower the flashpoint, the less the essential oil will impact the beer. In effect, whirlpool hopping removes the rolling boil (for the whirlpool hops), lowering the temperature of the wort and therefore reducing the vaporization rate of the essential oils, allowing the essential oils to really “soak in” to the wort. The specifics of the “soak in” process is still very much a gray area but the general idea is that essential oils will be retained in the beer longer and enhance the hop flavor and aroma of the finished beer.

Alpha Acid Isomerization
Alpha acids will continue to isomerize after flameout until the temperature of the wort reaches about 175 °F (79 °C). Homebrewers trying to calculate a beer’s IBUs will need to guesstimate how much isomerization is occurring. The closer the wort is to 212 °F (100 °C) the higher the alpha acid isomerization rate. To do this, we can look to professional brewers for some guidelines. Ultimately, however, the thermal capacity of a professional 60bbl whirlpool vessel is quite different than 5 gallons (19 L) of homebrew, so the comparisons can only be rough guidelines at best.

Matt Brynildson of Firestone Walker Brewing Company says, “The fact that there is some isomerization (about 15% in whirlpool versus 35% in the kettle) of alpha acid means that not only hop aroma and hop flavor can be achieved, but also some bittering.” For Pelican Pub & Brewery’s Kiwanda Cream Ale, brewmaster Darron Welch adds the beer’s only hop addition at flameout. Welch gets about 25 IBUs from adding roughly 0.75 lbs./bbl (0.34 kg/bbl) of Mt. Hood hops at flameout then allowing a 30 minute whirlpool stage. This means that Darron is getting roughly 16% utilization on his 15 bbl system for a 1.049 specific gravity wort. As mentioned, in a homebrewers hop stand, the 5-gallon (19-L) kettle is going to cool much faster and therefore create lower utilization rates. Brad Smith, creator of the BeerSmith brewing calculator, gives this advice to homebrewers, “Something in the 10% range is not a bad estimate if hops are added near boiling and left in during the cool-down period.” From my own experience with extended hop stands in 11-gallon (42-L) batches, a 10% utilization rate for whirlpool hops seems reasonable.

The When and How
While hop forward beers can benefit from this technique, any beer where some hop nose is desired is also a good candidate. For low IBU beers, you can add no-boil hops or you can add a tiny bittering charge of hops to help break surface tension of the beer and then add all or the majority of the IBU contribution at knockout, with the 10–15% utilization in mind.

If your brewing system has a pump, you may opt to setup a tangential inlet for your kettle to allow the pump to perform the whirlpool for you. Keep in mind that you do not need a vigorous whirlpool; just a simple spinning of the wort. If you do not have a pump, a simple spoon or paddle will work to achieve the same results.

The second factor to consider is the length of your hop stand. There are no right or wrong answers, but anywhere from 10 minutes to 90 minutes — or even an overnight stand — can be employed. For most super-charged, hop-forward beers, my hop stands will run 45 to 60 minutes. For a mid-range hop profile like an American pale ale or a beer I am looking to get a significant IBU contribution from, I will usually shorten that stand to 30 minutes. If the beer is not to be hop forward nor do I need significant IBU from the hop stand, then 10–15 minute hop stand usually will suffices.

Three temperature profiles that seem to be popular among homebrewers are just off boil range 190–212 °F (88–100 °C), the sub-isomerization range 160–170 °F (71–77 °C), and a tepid hop stand range 140–150 °F (60–66 °C). The 190–212 °F (88–100 °C) range will allow essential oils with higher flashpoints an easier time to solubulize into the wort and also will allow some alpha acid isomerization to occur with the best estimates of between 5–15% utilization. Some homebrewers will keep their kettle burner on low to keep the temperature of the wort elevated above 200 °F (93 °C) during their extended hop stands which would better emulate the conditions in commercial whirlpools. A hop stand in the 160–170 °F (71–77 °C) range will basically shut down the alpha acid isomerization reaction and the lower temperatures will reduce the vaporization of the essential oils. Homebrewers can use their wort chillers to bring the wort down to this range before adding the knockout hops or they can add a second dose of knockout hops. The 140–150 °F (60–66 °C) range will once again reduce vaporization of the low flashpoint oils, but may take longer to get the same amount of essential oils extracted.

I have never had dimethyl sulfide (DMS) issues with any of the beers I have performed a hop stand on and have always left the lid on. If using a Pilsner malt or other DMS-prone, lightly-kilned base malt, you may want to increase your boil time to 90 minutes.

Dry Hop Considerations
Another factor to consider is how to handle dry hopping your hop-forward beers if you employ an extended hop stand. Rock Bottom Restaurant & Brewery performed an extensive study on hop stands and dry hopping under the guidance of the Portland, Oregon brewmaster at the time Van Havig, (now of Gigantic Brewing Co., Portland, Oregon). The study was published by the Master Brewers Association of the Americas Technical Quarterly and considered beers that were hopped in four different ways, short hop stand (50 minutes) and no dry hops, long hop stand (80 minutes) and no dry hops, no hop stand and just dry hops and finally half the hops in hop stand (80 minutes) and half the hops for dry hopping. Beers produced using exclusively hop stands and the beers produced using exclusively dry hops will both result in well-developed hop characteristics, but there were some nuances. The long hop stand developed more hop flavor and aroma than the short hop stand indicating that essential oils were still soaking into the wort after 50 minutes. The exclusively dry hopped beer received its best marks in the aroma department, higher than the hop stand beers, but scored lower for its hop flavor. The beers where only half of the hops were added for the hop stand and half were added for aroma ended up scoring high in both departments. Havig’s study also showed that adding 1 lb./bbl (0.45 kg/bbl) Amarillo® dry hops produced the same amount of hop aroma as ½ lb./bbl (0.23 kg/bbl), indicating diminishing returns at higher dry hop rates.

So if you are just giving this technique a try, here is what I would suggest based on the study’s findings. Take all the hops you plan to add for late addition hops and dry hops and cut them in half. Add half at knockout and the second half as a dry hop addition. Again, don’t feel the need to go overboard with these additions.

If you are interested in using this technique in your brewhouse, I have included three recipes I have used with great success to craft some of the best beers that have graced my kegerator. I assumed 10% hop utilization rates for the hops added for the hop stand. My next test will be of an extended spice stand . . . if it works for hops, why not my next winter warmer? Happy Brewing!

[Eric974]

Lorsque je fais mon hopstand à 78/80°je fais le whirlpool et en même temps ( comme dit l'autre) j’ajoute mon houblon

Tu ne serais pas dans l'hémisphère sud toi pour aller à l'envers ?

Oui et on marche la tête en bas, en + quand il fait -35 chez toi il fait +35 chez nous

Si tu traduis je lis

Tu as le lien des 3 articles

[Cede]

Il fait pas chaud là et il neige pas mal....

Bref, les liens c'est sur BYO mais ils ne sont pas tous en accès gratuit.
Mais si tu cherches dans google BYO + la première phrase de chaque texte, tu devrais retrouver le lien.

Sinon avec chrome, tu fais clic droit traduire en français et ça devrait faire un truc lisible.

[Eric974]

Après avoir reposé mes neurones je me suis re-penché sur le sujet
Désolé de vous importuner et de vous contredire encore une fois les anglophones mais après lecture attentive de ces 3 articles il n'est pas dit d'ajouter le hopstand avant le whirlpool mais plutôt mais plutôt pendant We add our hops in the whirlpool as late as we can,
Ici I will be calling this technique whirlpool hopping, but keep in mind that homebrewers don’t need to keep their wort constantly swirling in the kettle for this technique to work. ils disent qu'il n'est pas utile de garder le tourbillon actif pour que cette technique fonctionne.....donc sous entendu qu'ils le font avant
Et whirlpool hopping can add significantly to the hop flavor and aroma of beer.

Si on fait le whirpool après le hopstand l’expression " houblonnage au whirlpool" est stupide

Au cas ou j'ai loupé un truc dites moi

[Cede]

En fait c'est des techniques pro qu'il faut adapter à la maison.
Eux partent le whirlpool à la fin de l'ébu et ajoutaient les houblons à ce moment là. Puis ils laissaient un 20 minutes le temps que les débris se rassemblent au milieu.
Les seules choses que je retiens: au dessus de 79˚ ca extrait de l'amertume, en dessous non.
Les houblons peuvent être mis avant, pendant, à la fin du whirlpool suivant ce que l'on veut en tirer.
Ou on peut ne pas faire de whirlpool aussi.
Il faut juste approximer ce que l'on va tirer des houblons suivant la température à laquelle on les mets.

[Eric974]

Les seules choses que je retiens: au dessus de 79˚ ca extrait de l'amertume, en dessous non.

En effet on a déjà debatu des dizaines de fois de ce sujet entre ceux qui disent que non et ceux qui disent que oui comme BS3

Eux partent le whirlpool à la fin de l'ébu et ajoutaient les houblons à ce moment là. Puis ils laissaient un 20 minutes le temps que les débris se rassemblent au milieu.

A la coupure du feu ou à 78° ce qui revient exactement au même dans la technique et le mode d'introduction

Les houblons peuvent être mis avant, pendant, à la fin du whirlpool suivant ce que l'on veut en tirer.
Ou on peut ne pas faire de whirlpool aussi.

Ce qui pourrait laisser penser que dans certains articles ou certaines recettes le terme de whirlpool serait à tors utilisé dans le sens de refroidissement et non pas dans le sens ou on l'entend de tourbillon ( lorsque l'on voit comment parle trump tout est possible)